Curse

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTMNDead

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/E_Kathandrax_Solo

From that build:

Boss

* Have your team ball up, one person aggro him, and PI him.
* When your party dies, run into a fireball so you dont accumulate Death Penalty.
* Repeat until the boss dies. 4

edit Counters

* Bad pubbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

You totally zinged him.

You named a place where the permasin only acts as a completely invincible tank rather than acting as a completely invincible tank that also kills everything.

Sick burn dude, sick burn.

Huh, I was unaware that the entire game only consisted of about 20 explorable areas that is dominated by the SF Permasin. I guess all those Dervs, Paras, Mesmers, Rangers and others I see are just Permasins wearing costumes?

Looking on Wiki I see 11 A/E builds. There are 12 600/Smite builds. Plus a bunch others of various classes and teams, and that's just under the "Great" category.

So yeah, I guess in the face of overwhelming evidence that supports my claims, I must still be wrong, cause, you know, everyone only plays SF Sins now. Oh wait...

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Huh, I was unaware that the entire game only consisted of about 20 explorable areas that is dominated by the SF Permasin. I guess all those Dervs, Paras, Mesmers, Rangers and others I see are just Permasins wearing costumes?

Looking on Wiki I see 11 A/E builds. There are 12 600/Smite builds. Plus a bunch others of various classes and teams, and that's just under the "Great" category.

So yeah, I guess in the face of overwhelming evidence that supports my claims, I must still be wrong, cause, you know, everyone only plays SF Sins now. Oh wait...

Oh my!

Now you zinged ME. You cannot be contained man, you are a wild beast at this whole debate and game balance stuff.

Steps_Descending · Dec 13, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

You're assuming that ANet intended places like UW only for the most experienced players. Big assumption to make. I ASSUME that the most experienced players play GvG and other high end PvP, while PvE is meant for those unable to cope with the skill required for PvP, or who wish to abstain from it entirely. Different assumptions make for different conclusions [...]

Since it was refered to as elite since the begining and they have done nothing to change it. It should be safe to assume that it is an elite area, thought easier than DoA/Deep&co. Also the fact that it was unlocked by the "best pvpers" in the begining. I doubt they would make pure-pvpers work for the lowly-pveers for no reward. (added: Actually, they probably did it so that PvEers start PvP)

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Please tell me how playing Raisu Palace or Elona's Reach prepares one for a balanced team spending 2+ hours in the UW or FoW doing a full clear? Or that groups are dominated by the PvE meta, such that unless one is running a specific build, they can't get a group, even if its a build they used to wipe the mat with Prophecies?

He was wrong there but the mission should hopefully teach you how to kite/disrupt/kill/stay alive/[basic technique]. Then you have to apply them in an environment where the minautaurs hit for 100 on auto-attack and learn how to do the UW quests.

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Also, who are you, or ANYONE to dictate to someone else how a game was "meant to be played?" If I want to skip through some missions because I'm on my 6th character, that's my damn choice!

If it's your 6th char, you should already know how to play the game. You've (probably) been playing for quite some time. You're basically not a newbie.

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How would you fix elite areas such that all classes could participate? Are you honestly going to try and tell me that ANet has been trying to make UW and DoA into areas that teams will find it valuable to cart along a Beastmaster Ranger, or Illusionary Weapon Mesmer? Riiiiight... You presume much. A War/Ele/Mo team can still do the Elite areas just fine, SF allows Sin in, now all ANet needs to do is to make the other 6 classes have Elite based builds that allow them to compete.

Now you have to be trolling, you're mistaking classes and builds. A Marksman ranger or a dom mesmer would have their place in DoA (in theory), in practice they should work but will be suboptimal. It's a problem if they are suboptimal everywhere. Beside, an area where any build would work would be easy, thus would not be elite.

Concerning "bringing war/elem" to sin level, the other way should work too : bring sin to war/elem level.

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If its optional, and has no gameplay effect, then what is the harm in allowing the plebes with their Permas a shot at it? The only thing SF does is devalue the e-peen value of things like FoW armor and high end skins, which have zero advantages. Its in ANet's best interest to cater to the masses so they can continue making games and pay salaries and dividends, its not in their best interests to marginalize the player base and tell people that "this area is off limits because we can't figure out how to make Mesmers and Assassins work here."

That's just plain stupid.

You said it your self, the only effect is e-peen. Their point is to show your dedication and time at the game while not giving advantages. If the plebes with their Permas can have them thrice as fast, the epeen value diminishes. You nerf the title basically. A nerf is only to be made if it's necessary, right?

Ugh · Dec 13, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Wait, what? How is a nerf of the "speedclear" build of SF going to make dungeons less time consuming?

Learn math symbols if you want to understand my post.

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Unless you're also assuming a massive revamp of dungeon difficulty, mob skillsets, and further player skill balancing?

A decrease in the amount of time needed to complete an area with a balanced group accompanied by the nerf of SF would allow elite areas to continue to see play.

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Balanced groups /= faster run times, what makes for the fastest run is the most optimized build, so if SF is nerfed something else will replace, more than likely NOT groups composed of one of each class

Yes, but it will probably consist of a much greater variety of classes than the current SCs. And, according to your previous posts, classes being excluded from play is a big concern to you.

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You're assuming that ANet intended places like UW only for the most experienced players. Big assumption to make.

It's a general rule of thumb in every (good) game ever made that end game content is reserved for experienced players.

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Please tell me how playing Raisu Palace or Elona's Reach prepares one for a balanced team spending 2+ hours in the UW or FoW doing a full clear?

Tell you how playing through the game prepares you for playing through the game in more difficult areas? It seems self-explanatory.

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Again, you're assuming that all people in high end areas, playing SF Sins or other Meta builds are copy/pasters from the Wiki. And why is that even bad? PvE is certainly dominated by the Meta builds, so emulating them is a sure means of success.

Copy/pasting from wiki isn't necessarily a bad thing, but doing so without actually gathering knowledge/experience/skill yourself is.

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Also, who are you, or ANYONE to dictate to someone else how a game was "meant to be played?" If I want to skip through some missions because I'm on my 6th character, that's my damn choice!

I was talking about inexperienced players.

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How would you fix elite areas such that all classes could participate?

1. Nerf SF
2. Make ridiculously difficult areas a bit less difficult
3. Make ridiculously time-consuming areas less time-consuming

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Are you honestly going to try and tell me that ANet has been trying to make UW and DoA into areas that teams will find it valuable to cart along a Beastmaster Ranger, or Illusionary Weapon Mesmer?[/I]

I don't expect Beastmaster Rangers and Illusionary Weapon Mesmers to be able to find groups, but I do expect rangers and mesmers to be able to find groups. And making elite areas less exclusive to other professions (by the means stated above) will do just that.

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The only thing SF does is devalue the e-peen value of things like FoW armor and high end skins, which have zero advantages.

Also, it causes profession exclusion to high-end content.

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Its in ANet's best interest to cater to the masses so they can continue making games and pay salaries and dividends, its not in their best interests to marginalize the player base and tell people that "this area is off limits because we can't figure out how to make Mesmers and Assassins work here."

It's also in their best interest to not make themselves look like incompetent game-designers. Giving permanent invincibility in a game like GW goes against their best interest.

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That's just plain stupid.

Quite.

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Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

He was wrong there but the mission should hopefully teach you how to kite/disrupt/kill/stay alive/[basic technique].

I'm wrong but you agree with me?

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

It's also in their best interest to not make themselves look like incompetent game-designers. Giving permanent invincibility in a game like GW goes against their best interest.

this this this

The longer SF goes untouched, the more ridiculous and incompetent the GW designers look, not only to rational GW players, but also to any onlookers.

Hell, I use this game as an example in other games. People bitch that a skill is slightly overpowered? I link them to SF on the wiki and tell them that Guild Wars has a skill that can make you invincible, and can be maintained indefinitely. We all have a chuckle at GW's expense, then agree that the balance isn't that bad in the other game.

Davros Uitar · Dec 13, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Interesting debate - but that nerf IS happening has been announced. No point in debating that, and no real argument to defend god mode anyways.

It only remains to be seen when it will happen, and if it is at all playable afterwards.

Personally I hope it gets the full "Smiters Boon" treatment. Gogo meta shake-up

. While I would like to get the nerf as a Wintersday gift I have no problem if the SF lovers get to keep it as their gift. Just get it gone before 2010 plox.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davros Uitar

Interesting debate - but that nerf IS happening has been announced. No point in debating that, and no real argument to defend god mode anyways.

It only remains to be seen when it will happen, and if it is at all playable afterwards.

Personally I hope it gets the full "Smiters Boon" treatment. Gogo meta shake-up

. While I would like to get the nerf as a Wintersday gift I have no problem if the SF lovers get to keep it as their gift. Just get it gone before 2010 plox.

Don't even need the Smiter's Boon treatment.

Hell, something like...
For 5...18...21 seconds, all physical damage done to you is reduced by 50%, and you are immune to all conditions.

Would be more balanced than it is now, without removing it from the game (I'd still use it in some places).

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Since it was refered to as elite since the begining and they have done nothing to change it. It should be safe to assume that it is an elite area, thought easier than DoA/Deep&co. Also the fact that it was unlocked by the "best pvpers" in the begining. I doubt they would make pure-pvpers work for the lowly-pveers for no reward. (added: Actually, they probably did it so that PvEers start PvP)

He was wrong there but the mission should hopefully teach you how to kite/disrupt/kill/stay alive/[basic technique]. Then you have to apply them in an environment where the minautaurs hit for 100 on auto-attack and learn how to do the UW quests.

If it's your 6th char, you should already know how to play the game. You've (probably) been playing for quite some time. You're basically not a newbie.

You make very valid points, and I agree with them. The problem is not basic technique, but how each class applies it. The technique to tanking used by a Warrior and its effects are vastly different from a shadowstepping Moebius Sin or the like. The way ANet designed it, the classes that make it in the elite areas are the ones with the most resilience to being spiked down, especially in places like DoA. The Sin is very poorly designed in this respect, as are other classes suchas Mesmer or Ranger, that do not DIRECTLY contribute to either overwhelming DPS or damage mitigation. In theory, a domination Mesmer or interrupt Ranger could be very effective, but in practice, especially in Elite areas with little room for error, most groups would rather have extra redundancy in either an off-tank or more prot monks and nuker eles.

A Sin can be a very effective melee nuker, the problem is getting into melee with DoA creatures with 70 armor. When ANet designed the Elite areas, its almost as if they had the Big 3 in mind as the only classes people would take.

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Now you have to be trolling, you're mistaking classes and builds. A Marksman ranger or a dom mesmer would have their place in DoA (in theory), in practice they should work but will be suboptimal. It's a problem if they are suboptimal everywhere. Beside, an area where any build would work would be easy, thus would not be elite.

Untrue, my point is that to make it in "Elite" areas, all classes should bring something to the table, such as Mesmer Interrupts or Ranger spirits and such. The problem again, is the way ANet designed these areas, such that the only valid solution is massive DPS, solid tanking and crazy healing/prots. I played WoW for a couple of months, with some friends who were really into it, and as a contrast to GW, in places like Naxxramas and such, every class was represented, because the areas while difficult, were still designed so that all classes could participate.

In GW, this is not the case. There's no stealth system for Assassins, Mesmer interrupts have little effect when recharges on OP monster skills are half or less the Mesmer interrupt, and so on and so forth. There's no way for marginalized classes to compete with the Big 3 because the areas are very poorly designed.

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Concerning "bringing war/elem" to sin level, the other way should work too : bring sin to war/elem level.

Thats what happened. Permasin replaced OB Flesh tanking. Now people QQ about it because their War and Ele mains aren't wanted anymore. So the Sin will go back to obscurity while the crybabies get their way.

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You said it your self, the only effect is e-peen. Their point is to show your dedication and time at the game while not giving advantages. If the plebes with their Permas can have them thrice as fast, the epeen value diminishes. You nerf the title basically. A nerf is only to be made if it's necessary, right?

The title isn't nerfed, those who worked hard for it know the value. Anyone on this forum who sees a Sin with GWAMM is going to assume Perma, while a Mesmer with GWAMM will surprise people. The title is not devalued at all IMHO. And even if it WAS, a grind title which has no effect on gameplay is not a good enough reason to nerf the one build that allows a class to actually participate.

My hope is that ANet DOES change SF so that it is not so dominant, but along with that buff other skills to make them more desirable in areas that are Elite. Along with THAT, I hope ANet buffs skills on the other marginalized classes, like Rangers and Mesmers, to give them some reason to be taken along.

Bring back the days of the Bunnythumpers and Touch Rangers lol. Dervishes need a massive overhaul for example, Mysticism needs to be totally reworked and the scythe's AoE effect needs to have something like:

Only hits one target with a Mysticism score of less than 4.

Then at least you'd see the end of scythesins and scythewars, IMHO that's more important a change than SF.

UnChosen · Dec 13, 2009, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I quit reading your post here.

I don't give a flying f*ck about "what you get". I don't care if you get 30 million ectos for each Devourer in the desert that you kill. SF is a broken game mechanic that far outclasses any other skill/build in the game.

I don't care what I get either. I care about what OTHER get because every single f*cking nerf they does shrink the amount of areas in which I can group with people without relying on a guild all the time!

When Ursan was around people actually do dungeon clear AND DoA AND UW AND FoW AND there were even more people doing The Deep and Urgoz. After Ursan the amount of areas shrunk to ONE.

Once it gets to the point where every area of the game is empty except for one...I don't f*cking care if there's "broken" skills around. If they can't balance their reward system and skills to enable more areas and more classes....then I'll take the "broken" skill as the alternative. Because to me anything is better than playing a "single player" game with H/h + begging guildies/friends to wait for me to do end game areas all the time.

I'm pretty sure the majority of the players in the game feels the same way. The only people who doesn't feel like the entire game is empty(except for UW) are the people who only play with their little circle of guildies/friends and never ever even look around to see how many people are still playing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

...

Agree to everything said. Except they STILL have to balanced the reward between areas or people will just all take their newly accepted class to just one area, leaving everything else still empty.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

I don't care what I get either. I care about what OTHER get because every single f*cking nerf they does shrink the amount of areas in which I can group with people without relying on a guild all the time!

You don't need to group with people for most of the game...and even then, you only need 1-2 other people.

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Learn math symbols if you want to understand my post.

SC nerf + dungeons made less time consuming = more balanced groups being formed = more classes seeing play

I'm decent at math, what you fail at is logic. It is not logical to assume dungeons will be made LESS time consuming when ANet does things like add Skeletons of Dhuum everywhere to UW. That /= faster, duh. The only way more classes see play is if they're AS efficient as the fastest builds, otherwise people won't use them. Basic economics 101, opportunity cost. Fastest build = more loot per unit time. Which means the fastest group builds will be used, which is highly unlikely to be composed of 8 different base professions.

Fail.

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A decrease in the amount of time needed to complete an area with a balanced group accompanied by the nerf of SF would allow elite areas to continue to see play.

So you're advocating they be made easier then? Because that's the only way a sub-optimized group of builds will be able to get through an area. If the Elite areas are kept difficult, hence retaining their "Elite" exclusionary status, then only the most optimized, fastest builds will be used.

Basic logic.

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Yes, but it will probably consist of a much greater variety of classes than the current SCs. And, according to your previous posts, classes being excluded from play is a big concern to you.

Yes, actually, exclusion of classes is my biggest concern. However, nerfing SF will only relegate Sins to the netherworld of H/H, unless ANet has a massive inspiration and makes a contrasting buff to skills that makes them valuable in groups. The same thing needs to happen for classes such as Mesmers, Rangers and Dervs who are not attractive at all in the face of having a second tank, additional nuker or more healing. Paragons are iffy, they have the SY! spam, but that's the only one people know or accept, just like SF builds. And SY! is iffy as a skill, since in Elite areas if the back and midline is targeted, its nearly a guaranteed wipe.

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It's a general rule of thumb in every (good) game ever made that end game content is reserved for experienced players.

No, its not. The problem with GW is people have become used to the idea of "Elite" areas being exclusive to elitist players. I Played WoW for a couple of months and was raiding endgame areas with a sub-kitted Rogue, yet was still able to contribute and play. The same cannot be said for GW. Its a terrible business model if after the short campaigns, the only thing left for players to choose from is endless rep grind or trying to break into Elite areas with sub-par builds. How people justify these exclusionary principles in the face of the fact that every "great" game ever made allows everyone to have a go at the whole thing is beyond me.

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Tell you how playing through the game prepares you for playing through the game in more difficult areas? It seems self-explanatory.

Oh really? So you're saying its just a hop, skip and jump from Imperial Sanctum to DoA? I breezed through Nightfall on a melee Dervish, got Legendary Survivor, yet can't get a group in DoA to save my life. Explain that.

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1. Nerf SF
2. Make ridiculously difficult areas a bit less difficult
3. Make ridiculously time-consuming areas less time-consuming

Permasin is only a symptom. You people have your priorities all wrong. If you truly want everyone to have a chance at playing the whole game, as I do, then area balance and risk/reward is FAR above the nerfing of one skill.

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I don't expect Beastmaster Rangers and Illusionary Weapon Mesmers to be able to find groups, but I do expect rangers and mesmers to be able to find groups. And making elite areas less exclusive to other professions (by the means stated above) will do just that.

At what point did ANet announce massive revamps of all Elite areas to accomodate even super-optimized Ranger or Mesmer builds? If you got a link please post it, because i haven't seen it. The inability of groups to accomodate any class but War/Ele/Mo in high end areas has been around since NF was released, and the SF buff did not do anything to make it worse or better. Conversely, an SF nerf won't make the world of GW players immediately say, "hey now that SF is gone we should take a Ranger and Mesmer cause they're awesome now!"

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Also, it causes profession exclusion to high-end content.

It's also in their best interest to not make themselves look like incompetent game-designers. Giving permanent invincibility in a game like GW goes against their best interest.

Again, redefining SF has invincibility is an ad hoc argument that is not grounded in any sort of fact. What makes ANet look incompetent is that all content after Hell's Precipice, Imperial Sanctum, Abaddon's Gate and A Time For Heroes is grind, in a game that was supposed to minimize grind and be based on skill. What goes against their best self interest as a company is to change the game so that it caters to the elitist mindset and excludes the statistically larger playerbase that is the casual gamer. Heck, from a technical standpoint, hardcore players are to be avoided because they take up more bandwidth over time per capita than does a casual gamer.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Again, redefining SF has invincibility is an ad hoc argument that is not grounded in any sort of fact. What makes ANet look incompetent is that all content after Hell's Precipice, Imperial Sanctum, Abaddon's Gate and A Time For Heroes is grind, in a game that was supposed to minimize grind and be based on skill. What goes against their best self interest as a company is to change the game so that it caters to the elitist mindset and excludes the statistically larger playerbase that is the casual gamer. Heck, from a technical standpoint, hardcore players are to be avoided because they take up more bandwidth over time per capita than does a casual gamer.

Shame I've been warned for insults...because holy hell...this part of your post makes no sense.

1st...HM is not equal to grinding.

2nd...after you finish HM, do you just expect there to be a never ending stream of new content and missions? How the hell are you expecting to play a video game for 4 years and never repeat the same thing twice? You act like ANet is forcing you to grind out 300 ectos to get you some new armor or something. IF YOU DON'T ENJOY IT, DON'T F*CKING DO IT. Do what you feel like doing. Do what you have fun doing. If you don't enjoy farming for phat lewt to buy FoW armor...don't do it. I really don't understand people.

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

You don't need to group with people for most of the game...and even then, you only need 1-2 other people.

H/H Underworld and let me know how that goes...

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

H/H Underworld and let me know how that goes...

I have done.

Completed the entire place, with me and 6 heroes (let the other person leave, just wanted his heroes)

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Do what you feel like doing. Do what you have fun doing.

Truer words were never spoken, its a shame you only mean it for those who agree with how you play, and not everyone.

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I have done.

Completed the entire place, with me and 6 heroes (let the other person leave, just wanted his heroes)

So you abused a game exploit that allows you to have more heros than you are supposed to?

Pot calling kettle...

UnChosen · Dec 13, 2009, 11:17 PM // 23:17

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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

You don't need to group with people for most of the game...and even then, you only need 1-2 other people.

Like I said...I prefer not having to play a single player game. Making the entire game into H/h + Guilds is not good game design. If you're going to promote that, you better go revive the 7 heroes thread. If they want to kill off pugs in the name of balancing, then do it all the way and let everyone play single player with AI. And I would still need to group for all end game areas...in which I still need to get my guild to accommodate my schedule, or are you suggesting I skip work to play a game with my guild so that I can do end game areas?

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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Shame I've been warned for insults...because holy hell...this part of your post makes no sense.

1st...HM is not equal to grinding.

2nd...after you finish HM, do you just expect there to be a never ending stream of new content and missions? How the hell are you expecting to play a video game for 4 years and never repeat the same thing twice? You act like ANet is forcing you to grind out 300 ectos to get you some new armor or something. IF YOU DON'T ENJOY IT, DON'T F*CKING DO IT. Do what you feel like doing. Do what you have fun doing. If you don't enjoy farming for phat lewt to buy FoW armor...don't do it. I really don't understand people.

If you don't enjoy UWSC, don't do it, see what I did there? It boils down to inclusion/exclusion argument just like Kaleban said. This type of arguments contribute nothing to helping the game get better at all.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

Truer words were never spoken, its a shame you only mean it for those who agree with how you play, and not everyone.

I don't care how people "play".

I care about skills that are so unbalanced that a character is invincible for 90% of the game.

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I don't care how people "play".

I care about skills that are so unbalanced that a character is invincible for 90% of the game.

If its so distressing, don't use it.

With several hundred skills available, you COULD use a different build. However for those who LIKE playing that way, they can use the build.

Just as you said in your above post, let people play the way they wish, what they find fun.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

If you don't enjoy UWSC, don't do it, see what I did there? It boils down to inclusion/exclusion argument just like Kaleban said. Contributes nothing to helping the game get better at all.

It boils down to broken game balance.

Which is the same reason Base Defenders were not added as henchmen. I'm sure that a group of people would have enjoyed just blowing up sh*t with a group of Base Defenders destroying everything left and right.

That doesn't mean that it is good for the game, DUCY?